Ali Habashi: So for this episode, we’re going to be exploring how we, as both employees and employers, navigate loss in the workplace. But first, let’s explore your background a little bit. Dedicating yourself to after loss care is a path that I think almost demands a backstory.

So tell me about yours. What was the catalyst for becoming an expert in this field? 

Jennifer Good: So I had been working, I’d founded another company in the healthcare space, and then my grandmother got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. And we were really close, and she cared a lot about planning for end-of-life. So she put a sticky note on everything she owned so that no one in my family would fight over it.

She talked about her wishes. We got time together as a family. 

And then after she passed, we realized a lot of the important things actually hadn’t been done. So my whole family was gathered together for her funeral and to grieve and celebrate her life. But everyone was on these different customer service phone calls. So calling social security, trying to figure out which financial institution her money was at, the password to her phone, and it all just added up so that I felt like we couldn’t just sit and celebrate and share stories.

And the other piece of it was she had a Money Of My Own account where she’d been sort of squirreling money away her whole life, which ended up being enough to trigger probate.

So it just was a ton of work. And the extra context is my grandfather was actually a Supreme Court judge in New York State for 40 years. And so if he didn’t know how to plan, how is anyone else dealing with this was my big takeaway. So from there, I started looking more into it, interviewing people, and the big takeaway is this was not just a problem for my family.

The average family takes over 500 hours to settle an estate over 15 months, and a lot of those tasks are Monday through Friday, nine to five. So really challenging if you’re working. One in three people get their identity stolen after they pass away because people read through the obituaries and look for that personal information.

Funerals can be, if you see all the GoFundMe’s for funerals, they can be really, really expensive and people often don’t know that there are cheaper options. So it just felt like this big media problem that no one had solved, and I wanted to try to help families through that same experience I had.

Ali: Okay. I have a few things to say about this.

So that sort of Monday through Friday, second job that you take on for after loss, it seems so similar to the one you take on for caregiving before any of that even happens. First of all, I mean, it’s insane. It sounded like your grandma was planning, she was planning on you guys’ behalf.

She was planning on her behalf and that she had things sorted and it wasn’t enough, even though she was starting to plan even before her passing.

Jennifer: Yeah, I think you only die once. Like, you only live once, you only die once. And so people don’t have the expertise in this area because it’s not something you go through often and even as the person who’s handling the affairs, there’s only usually 1, 2, 3 people in your life you’re close enough for that.

You really take that responsibility after they pass. So no one or very few people really have that expertise. And my grandmother’s situation, she had palliative care, she had hospice, she had all the medical resources, and she was thinking about these things, but it still wasn’t enough because unraveling a modern life is just so complicated.

Ali: Yeah, and I think we’re definitely going to get into that a little bit too – just sort of what unraveling a modern life means, all of the things because there’s an insane checklist. It is so long. I guess we can go over that checklist now. We can go over sort of what needs to be done, but I’d also like to get into loss support.

Where does that come into play? What does it look like in actual practice? So I guess let’s start with the list. What’s that list that you have at the top of your mind, going into a recent death in the family?

Jennifer: Yeah. So the way we think about it is, it’s sort of what needs to happen now.

First 48 hours, then first week, first month, trying to segment it out because it can get really overwhelming. And then there’s categories of things. So say the first 48 hours: sometimes we get people who come to us and the person passed away minutes before and they don’t know what to do. So we need to say, take a deep breath.

If the death wasn’t under suspicious circumstances, you can actually take time to be with the person who passed or with family and sit and grieve and then get that pronouncement of death depending on what happened, considering organ donation. Funeral death certificates, notifying family and friends, employers appointments and then preventing theft by locking up valuables. People can be disappointing.

So locking up firearms, those immediate tasks and pets and independence. And then when we start looking farther out, in that first week or two, planning the funeral, getting the finances, just an understanding of it, figuring out what needs to happen.

One big one is not paying debts. People often think they need to pay the debts of, for example, their parent, and they’re not liable for it. But once you pay it, it’s hard to get that money back. But we go, over the course of the year, into detailed things you might not think about, like how to handle online accounts or airlines or how to prevent identity theft by freezing credit.

So we really go through all the details of what you might not think of, and then the big meaty things, how to do it that you might think of like the house or property, valuables the car, and help people through each step in the process. In terms of the categories, you think of a few things: healthcare, the funeral, emotional support, grieving, finances, financial accounts, and then financial property, valuables, safety, deposit boxes, vehicles, businesses, the house, as well as the legal side of it, like probate. and then digital remembering. And veterans benefits is another major one.

Oh, and then last one is expenses. So how to save money. The big thing, oftentimes a loss can be financially distressing as well. Those are the categories. Does that make sense to talk through what loss support means as well?

Ali: Oh yeah. Let’s, let’s move on to that, because that is such a massive to-do list, and obviously you’ve been working in after loss for quite a while. This is something that Homethrive has recently wrapped into its offerings as well, and integrated with our caregiving because I mean, loss is just a natural sort of continuation oftentimes. So I’d love to talk about what loss support means.

What does it mean for us at Homethrive to sort of jump in and help, after a loss? 

Jennifer: So loss support means that when you lose someone close to you, you don’t have to go through it alone, both on the emotional side and on the practical side. So on the emotional side, our Care Team of trained social workers can serve as someone trusted who can just listen and provide that trusted support.

And then they can also go beyond that, finding support groups, therapists, journaling prompts, meditations, just things to get through those toughest moments. And then on the practical side, we can just help take some of that burden. So I think that, as I mentioned before, people don’t necessarily have expertise on how to get things done or what needs to get done, so things take longer.

Whereas our team has helped thousands of people navigate difficult moments, so we know what the process looks like each step of the way. And so we can help people with the practical side of things, whether it’s filing an insurance claim or transferring the utilities or dealing with the bank or someone’s online accounts.

We can support that in two ways. One is we can tell you what you need to do and how to do it so you don’t have to figure it out all by yourself. Secondly, you can hand off your tasks to a dedicated law specialist who can actually do things for you. So they can go and they can freeze the credit for you to prevent identity theft.

Or they can help get quotes from funeral homes and plan the funeral so you can have something that’s culturally relevant to your family, but also affordable.

Ali: To me, it seems like even just having someone that I could call in the event of a loss would be hugely helpful, even if it’s just to talk me down or point me in the right direction because I feel like I would be sort of floating in an unknown sea at that point.

You mentioned that the team has helped thousands of people, through their grief and their losses.

So tell us what you’ve witnessed on this path of yours so far. I mean, loss is universal, so I can only assume that this is a benefit that everyone, regardless of income or background, can use to alleviate stressors or answer questions about grief and loss.

Jennifer: Yeah, I think that’s right.

While everyone is going through it, it can look different, but everyone can use some support. So, in terms of what it can look like, we’ve helped a super high net worth family plan a charity golf tournament to honor their father. And then on the other hand, we’ve helped a woman who was experiencing homelessness transfer the government snap benefits from her mother who had passed into her name.

And then we’ve helped a lot of people in between. So in one case, I remember an 18-year-old son calls asking for help, figuring out how to save money quickly because his father, who was the sole breadwinner, passed away. And so we were able to help him figure that out. The different expenses that could be canceled quickly and also how to get some additional benefits because the father was a veteran.

And so it does really look different for everyone. Some people are more DIYers and we can just share that list of what to do, how to do it, and they can take it from there. Some people have complex situations like cars that haven’t been registered for years that they need to sell, or complex family dynamics and they need more guidance and then others really appreciate that hands-on support and hand it off and we can save them up to 200 hours of their time.

Ali: That’s amazing. I think just seeing that extreme range of people that you help is interesting to hear.

Jennifer: Yeah. It’s truly universal. The great equalizer.

Ali: Okay, so we’ve spoken about the caregivers or the family members who have suffered a loss, but I’d like to explore the employer point of view.

Now, if I am an employer who is tracking productivity and results from the team, what should I keep in mind when I learn that someone has lost a loved one? Someone on my team?

Jennifer: If you’re already listening to this, you’re probably an empathetic person, so maybe this comes across as obvious, but it’s not to everyone: treat employees as human first.

There are these horror stories where the manager doesn’t give the employee any time off or follows up and calls about a deliverable while the employee’s on bereavement leave, or even at the funeral. Just don’t do that. Besides being insensitive, it often makes employees quit and can affect the morale of the whole team.

So what to do? I think there are some basics. Start with saying you’re sorry for their loss, acknowledging it, attending the funeral if appropriate. Coordinating a group gift. Food, flowers or a donation if they have one on the funeral site, if you have them. This is also a good opportunity to share any bereavement leave benefits and resources like Homethrive that can support the employee with their loss, and then finally give them as much time off as possible.

With the time off, the average is actually only around four days of bereavement leave, but really 20 or more if you can swing it is better because even after the leave, grieving takes time and settling affairs takes time. So then when the employee does come back to work, whether it’s after three days or three weeks, you also may need to be flexible with them for longer.

So then you may need to work fewer hours or take time off periodically to grieve or handle some of these administrative tasks. So I mentioned this before, but settling affairs is an average of 500 hours over 15 months, and a lot of those tasks are Monday through Friday, nine to five. So either you’re going to know your employee’s taking time off or they may have to sneak away.

So it’s better that you let them know that you understand and to be flexible, because it has to happen either way. And on the other hand, some employees may want to or need to come back to work quickly. So regardless of the seriousness of the loss, some people find work a needed distraction from those really intense, all-encompassing feelings of grief.

And then dealing with the loss of a loved one can also be really expensive. The average is over $10,000, so people may feel the need to work to pay bills. And then if the employee lost a spouse, it can either cut their income dramatically or maybe they need to pay for more childcare. So they may feel this increased pressure to work and need for the job.

And then on the emotional side, similarly, everyone grieves differently. Grief isn’t linear, so when they get back to work, they may be really inconsistent. So super productive and on top of it for a few days, and then have difficulty concentrating and not able to work effectively and may make mistakes or just be off.

And so there may be some need for reduced workload for a bit; you may not be able to predict how someone will process a loss. So for example, some people are extremely close with and grieve the loss of a friend more than a parent, or they might have grown up being cared for by their grandparents or aunts and uncles.

So those more extended family losses can still hit really hard. Loss of a pet is another one that can be devastating. And then you mentioned caregivers before, but employees who’ve been caregivers for a long time may also have different reactions. For example, they might have had anticipatory grief in processing where they’ve actually already been going through it and grieving for a year or more, and so they might be more okay than you would’ve expected.

Or conversely, they may now be missing someone who’s a huge part of their life and be a lot worse and more isolated in their grief. So just don’t prejudge how you think the employee will react to the loss and really listen. Be understanding and flexible. The biggest thing is just create this atmosphere of psychological safety where the person who lost a loved one can feel comfortable to share what’s going on and ask for what they need.

And so my last advice on this is just check in regularly, if they’re open to it, on how they’re doing. Often it’s best to just ask, how are you doing today? Because it offers more room for them to share what’s really going on.

If you’re the manager, you can do this during the regular one-on-ones. And then while talking about that, there’s also a few things not to say. So, don’t say you know how someone feels or make it about yourself by bringing up your illness or a loved one who is sick. Ask how they’re doing. We’ve heard that sometimes people feel like people are pretending nothing happened.

I think it’s coming from a place where people don’t ask because they’re afraid of overstepping or that it might feel uncomfortable, but if you don’t check in with the teammate, it may feel like you didn’t care. And then lastly, avoid saying really well-meaning things like they’re in a better place or everything happens for a reason.

Because people, even those with really deep faith, often find those comments offensive and insensitive while they’re grieving. So overall summarizing it, grieving takes time and it may be a longer journey to support employees through that process.

Ali: So what are some of the consequences, if I as a manager don’t give enough time to grieve? If I, as a manager, don’t check in or just sort of ignore the fact that somebody has just lost someone. You did mention that it does cause people to leave their company. It sounds like something that could possibly have ripple effects for the entire team too.

Jennifer: So yeah, people will quit. I hear all the time when someone wasn’t sensitive, when the team wasn’t sensitive about work or didn’t give them enough time off, or didn’t ask how they’re doing. They start looking for new jobs right away. Just not feeling treated as a human at work makes you wanna leave.

It removes any sense of loyalty if you just see me as a number. You’re just a number. Let me find a better number elsewhere. And then for the team, it can also have a huge effect too, because everyone goes through a difficult time. At some point everyone loses someone close to them, and so the whole team is watching what you do.

Ali: So I do have one more question. I worked for a company and while I was working there, one of my teammates did die, and I ended up going to their funeral along with the whole team. It was actually kind of a beautiful moment where we all got to go and say goodbye to him, one last time.

But as an employer, as a leader, what’s my best course of action when that loss gets a little closer to the team and it does affect the whole team because it is somebody that we lost, who we all maybe spent lunch with or we all worked with? Do you have any advice for leaders maybe going through that right now?

Jennifer: Well, I think your situation where they gave you time off to go to the funeral and grieve as a group is really important. I think when an employee passes, it can be really challenging because not only are the leaders of the team and the whole team grieving, but there can be really challenging issues related to the family’s finances.

And then there’s the getting the work done piece of it. So it’s really hard, but the first thing to do is to contact the next of kin to offer condolences. Offer support and then inquire about those funeral arrangements and any wishes they may have about sharing information about the death with the team.

And it’s also really helpful to the next of kin if you share, at that point, logistics and finances, if you can give final paychecks and more if possible. It can help with the family with funeral costs. You can also share logistics around things that the family may need to know about 401K accounts, health insurance, other benefits, life insurance or Homethrive, if that’s available to support them.

It can be really hard to know that the employee whose past loved ones are now financially struggling. So really any benefits or support you can provide them is very meaningful. The next thing to worry about is that team.

So as soon as possible tell the team, and then sometimes people forget about vendors or customers that the employee worked with who were externally facing. And then if you can let them know that the employee passed with as much information as possible while respecting the family’s wishes. The best approach is during that, not to be afraid to show emotion or minimize things because the team needs to know it’s okay to be human, it’s okay to struggle.

And then for the employees, I don’t know if your team did this, but offer any support like EAPs or grief support. And then if possible, to that point, let employees take time off to attend the funeral and lighten people’s workloads that week. And then it also might be good to organize something at work if going to the funeral as a group doesn’t make sense. Or even if it does, a memorial or a tribute, just so that the coworkers can grieve together and share those stories.

Or donate as a company to the family’s memorial fund if there is one. Start a scholarship, donate to a charity, or just do something in the employee’s name, like an award or bench.

And then we talked about this when we talked about an employee who loses a loved one, but in this case too, grief can be really long lasting and not linear. So it’s important not to just move on too quickly.

Keep those lines of communication with the team open to talk about how they’re doing, and check on team morale. And then some team members may want to distract themselves with work and others may need more time off. So just adjusting performance expectations based on how people are doing.

And the hardest part is that you do have to handle that workload and coverage. And so oftentimes you can temporarily assign the employee’s responsibilities to coworkers, but it’s important to acknowledge they may be grieving too, which may make it even harder for them to cover the work. So in this case, work may be impacted and that kind of has to be okay.

And I think being human about it creates a team where people can work effectively for longer and that’s just the short term sacrifice to really build an empathetic team. And then while leaving the coworkers with extra burden, longer term isn’t a good option. It’s also important not to advertise for the position too soon because it makes people feel like everyone’s replaceable.

And that can be really upsetting to colleagues when you hire for, or put someone else in the role or desk of their colleagues. So with all of this communicated openly with the team, acknowledge the difficulty, and just provide that open door for people to talk about how they’re feeling.

Ali: So we’ve come to the end of the episode now. So I did just want to ask you, do you have any final advice for someone who is either grieving now or someone who is trying to support somebody else who’s grieving now?

Jennifer: I think if you’re trying to support someone who’s grieving, don’t be afraid of overstepping.

A lot of times people ask what can I do to help? Better to come with specific things like, “Hey, can I bring you food on this day?” Or, “Hey, can I help with cleaning out all of the stuff from the house?” And then if you’re grieving now, there is support available.

You don’t have to go through it all alone. And so whether it’s a professional resource, like Homethrive’s Care Team, or a therapist or a support group, grieving is a long journey. It can be okay one day and then overwhelming waves of grief another day, and so just don’t be afraid to ask for help.