Autism Awareness and Origami Jewelry

Ali Habashi: So tell me a little bit about the transition from New York to Hawaii. How did you come to that decision, and how was it adjusting to the change?

Tiffany Chou: Well, I was living in New York pursuing my own aspirations, and I had been there for a little over a decade, and I started having what I would now call intuition. But back then I just had a very, very strong feeling that I was supposed to move home.

And I thought or had hoped I would live in New York forever because I just loved it so much, but I just had this very, very strong, nagging feeling telling me that I should move home. And I'd never, ever experienced anything like that before, and I think I thought my body or intuition or whatever you want to call it was telling me that it was time to move home to help take care of Chris.

That's what I was interpreting that indescribable pull as. And so I packed up all my stuff, and I moved back to Maui. And then a few months after I moved home, me and Chris' mom, our mom, was diagnosed with cancer, and she passed away in 2020. So I moved home in 2019, and then she passed away basically a year later.

And I think obviously since I've been here for a few years, I was always supposed to move home and start this business with Chris, but I also think that really strong feeling was also telling me it was my last moments that I was going to have with my mom.

Ali: Well, that's absolutely intuition, for sure.

And also, 2019, that's just a year before the pandemic hit too.

Tiffany: Oh, yeah. There was a lot of stuff going on.

Ali: Yeah. Well, I think it was an opportune time, and you couldn't have known this, but I think it was an opportune time to move back to Hawaii. So I'm glad you made that decision. I'm glad you listened to your soul as it spoke to you there. That's an incredible story.

Tiffany: I haven't had anything that strong, but whenever I have any intuition feelings, I really try to follow those.

Ali: I do the same thing. There's been a few times in my life where I'm like, "Ah, that's the right decision." And I think the few times I've had that feeling, it's always been correct. It's never been wrong.

So tell me a little bit more about your brother Chris.

Tiffany: When I moved home, Chris, my brother, was splitting his time between a day program and residential home here for adults with developmental disabilities, and then he would spend every other weekend at our dad's place.

And, we live on an island in the middle of the ocean, and so the programs and opportunities for Chris are very limited here. And the program he was at, there's a lot of people that really love it, and it's a wonderful program. But Chris, he really didn't like going there for a pretty long time, and he had been asking to move home and wanted to stop going to the day program.

But it's pretty complicated. When our parents divorced over 15 years ago, Chris got hit the hardest, and he became non-speaking for a while, violent, really agitated. And so it took a very long time to get him back into a stable place.

And so it had taken a whole lot of my dad, who eventually got custody of Chris, and he spent years trying to get him back to any semblance of my brother's old self. And he also thought going to this day program would be good, and help him meet other people and get some sort of sense of independence.

He would call it “his college experience.” And so by the time I moved home, Chris had been going to this program for a number of years, and he had been saying for a long time he didn't want to go anymore. So when I came home and could help with my dad, eventually I helped Chris leave the program and the residential home.

And I quickly realized that helping another person figure out what they were going to do every day, basically for the rest of their life is difficult. And when they're not in school, the job opportunities are even slimmer, right? For someone like my brother, he couldn't just apply.

There were very few places he could apply at all. And so I quickly learned that was going to be a huge undertaking. And when I was in New York, I had a jewelry business. I was a jewelry designer. And Chris simultaneously was also learning jewelry-making on his own here. And so I was like, "Oh, why don't we start a jewelry business with Chris selling his jewelry at local pop-ups on the island?"

And that's how that all started, and then we did that for about three years. And we got flagged by Social Security because Chris was getting all the money, and because I had never been a caregiver before, I didn't know all the limitations surrounding disability benefits. You're only allowed to make a certain amount of money.

And so we got flagged by Social Security, and they're like, "He's making too much money and he's going to start losing his benefits." And I was like, "Oh." and that was like a huge downer at the time, but it was a turning lemons into lemonade kind of situation where Chris would get paid the limit of what he was allowed to make.

And then I was like, there are so many other people at the program Chris was going to that are all in the same position. They want to work or they want to be out in the community. And so while we were still doing pop-ups, some of our friends from Chris's program are our current staff.

And, so basically I was like, "Why don't we use all the extra money to start this business to help other people like Chris?" Because they're all basically in the exact same situation. And that's how Depo Market started.

We currently have four staff with disabilities, and then all of them currently have support workers. They can all pretty much do the job on their own but the support workers are for safety and also to help them stay on track. We have had employees in the past that didn't need a support person from the same day program.

And some of them make things, and then we employ others like Jules, who's been a very popular person on our social media. One of the questions she gets asked the most when she's working is, "What do you make here?" And, it has started really to nag on her, making her feel like her worth isn't the same as Chris, who makes jewelry.

And so we've really tried to make a point of showing that to people, because we do have people that come in the store that say, "I only want to buy something that's made by somebody." But I think the bigger picture isn't actually that they're making stuff. I actually think the bigger thing is that you don't ever see someone that looks like Chris working anywhere, let alone retail.

So I think that's actually the bigger message that we're trying to push and not everybody is making, like the jewelry that Chris is making.

Ali: But they're all kind of making the machine work.

Tiffany: Yes, that's true. When we were doing our pop-ups, Chris made origami jewelry, which is a very specific style. I want people to buy our things because they're actually going to use them. I don't want people to buy stuff out of pity.

I want people to buy things that they're actually going to use. It's nice that they want to support us, but when we were doing pop-ups, we actually were doing a charm table.

And because my background is jewelry, I was like, "Oh, this is so easy. Anybody can do it." Such an ignorant thing to think, and Chris could do it really easily. And like I was saying, we had a couple people that still work for us now, and I tried to train them how to open a jump ring, and they couldn't do it.

And I was like, "Oh, no, my business idea sucks. What are we going to do?" So basically we sell a whole bunch of different things, like a lot of locally-made stuff, and then Chris and one of our other staff, Nathan, helps with our bags that we make. But then, like I was saying, Jules, she helps write letters for our mail club, but she's also a huge social butterfly.

So everyone has their niche even if it's not necessarily hand-making something.

Ali: I've been on the website. I've seen the shop. It's full of cute things. I keep going back to it. But it's really nice to see, and I think I've seen all the faces of the people who work there.

So when this project first came about, what did Chris think of it? Was he excited?

Tiffany: Chris is one of those people that's just along for the ride. And he's been saying, for a very long time, "I want a fancy jewelry store." Like he's saying he wants to work at Macy's or Tiffany's.

That's all he says. He even says it now. And I'm like, "But Chris, if a customer is in the store, you can't go eat your sandwich." Because he's very food-driven. I'm like, "You actually have a really great setup here."

But yeah, I think he really enjoys it, and you know, I really try to stress  freedom and independence. Like today he had some clothing fixed at a seamstress across the street from our store, and I told him, "Tell your support worker that you can go pick it up by yourself, okay? Like, at 12:00 you're going to go pick that up by yourself."

And so just trying to help him with confidence and self-esteem, being able to do things without other people's help, and that's partially what we're trying to achieve at the store also is trying to help all of our staff understand that they're very capable of doing a sale completely by themselves.

And also helping their support workers understand that too.

Ali: I've seen Chris's jewelry online. It looks amazing. I don't know how to do that. So I have faith. I hope he is, I hope everybody there is getting a little bit more confidence in themselves while working there.

So I recently interviewed a woman named Heather Collins. She's from an organization, a nonprofit, called Wilderness on Wheels. It's out of Colorado, and it's the world's only accessible walking trail in the mountains. She's a wheelchair user herself, so you can imagine that there's a good bit of the world that wasn't really built with her in mind.

So can you talk a little bit about what you've seen in terms of disabilities and how the world tends to treat folks that aren't neurotypical?

Tiffany: I think it really touches on going back to what I said earlier of how people interact with my staff when they first come into the store because we don't have any signage.

Unless you've heard about us or know about us, there's no signage that says this is a disability-run store. And I asked Chris before we opened, "Do you want any signage?" He said, "No." And so we get a lot of different reactions from people, especially because Chris has different social skills.

And so some people are just like, "No, thanks." They don't like his approach and they leave. I have like little cards on the side. It's not blatant signage, but I have little cards on the side of the store that are informational cards that say What is Autism, What is Down Syndrome, What is Williams Syndrome.

So if you’re looking around, I think eventually you'll pick up that our store is a little different. But just the way people talk to my staff and, I know pretty much 100% of the time it's coming from a good place. But, like I said, a lot of the questions that everyone gets are, "Oh, what did you make here?"

And, "I only want to support you by buying something that you made," rather than understanding that if Jules is working, whatever you buy in the store is actually supporting her. It's such an interesting social experiment. Because if you went into any other store, I don't think you would ask the person working there, "Did you make anything in here?"

That's not a typical question. So it's just very interesting that's what people expect, and because a lot of people haven't given people with disabilities the chance to work a front-of-the-house job. And so I think they think that they must be working here because they made something.

But a lot of the times that's not the case. And, like I said earlier, I actually think it's more important that people like Chris are given the chance to work different types of or unexpected jobs. They might need a little bit of help, but they're totally capable of doing it.

Ali: You know, I live in a tourist town, and this might sound insane speaking to somebody from Hawaii, but I live in a tourist town. And we get a lot of very interesting well-meaning questions, but insane questions nonetheless.

So that doesn't surprise me. A lot of people are very curious and very interested–

Tiffany: I know they're all very well-meaning questions

Ali: Yes. they want to be helpful, but I mean, I've been there. Some people have said the most insane things I've heard come out of other people's mouths.

So, I think as long as there's no maliciousness behind it, then they can come in and learn something. Is there anything you would like to see in the near future?

How would you like to see the U.S. evolve a little bit more in terms of this treatment?

Tiffany: It's actually really great with social media now. There's always a plus and minus to social media, but I get to see, all the different types of businesses that are popping up with the disability community in mind.

I had never heard of, I'm so sorry, what was it called? The Colorado–

Ali: Oh, Wilderness on Wheels.

Tiffany: Wilderness on Wheels. I'd never heard of that. And it's just really great that people are doing things like that. And it's probably always been happening, but because we have social media now, I'm more informed of all the different opportunities happening.

And hopefully it just keeps moving forward. And I mean, ideally, making more opportunities. Chris and my staff are usually seen in groups when they're like being taken out for their group activity for the day, not usually at their job. So hopefully what people take away from us is that "Oh, maybe I should try hiring somebody with a disability,"

Ali: Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, I can see the change that's happened from when I was young too, especially with general understanding of what a lot of this means or what very specific things mean. So that is very hopeful, and I'm glad that you're seeing more opportunities, especially in the job market, pop up because I don't see that as much.

I see the general understanding is there.

Tiffany: It might just be because people are tagging me because I have a business.

Ali: Yes, might be. Have you noticed any differences between Hawaii and the mainland as far as care and support goes for people like Chris?

Tiffany: I think just because we're on an island, the care facilities and programs are limited here, like I was saying. But I know people on the mainland are struggling too with that. When I hear about my friends' families that are caregivers for their siblings or parents, when I hear about other people's stories, I consider myself to be very lucky in terms of Chris' care needs are not as high as some people's.

And I know I focus a lot about sharing the stories of my staff, but I also think it's really important to not forget about the people that support them along the way of their dreams and their independence. Because a lot of times they don't get touched upon, and it can be very challenging despite where we are, mainland or here.

Ali: I think location does matter quite a lot, at least with healthcare and supports, like state supports, local supports. But I think there's always something that can be improved upon, and what might work one day might not work the next day as well. Okay, so what is the future of Depo Market and its artists and its workers? Where do you want to see it go?

Tiffany: So I mean, the goal would be to hire as many people as possible. And, I'd love to open another store, and would also like to expand our wholesale and website so that I could employ people that want to do the wholesale or online order side.

I'm just not there yet. But yeah, the goal would be to employ as many people as possible, and to hopefully inspire other businesses to have a more diverse work staff.

Ali: Do you have any, and this is left field, but do you have any relationships with other businesses that have been DM'ing you?

Tiffany: I haven't had any businesses be like, "Oh, I'd really like to hire someone with a disability. Can you help me?" I haven't had any messages like that. But maybe one day there will be, and I would love to assist.

Ali: That'd be cool. Okay, so any final words? Any final words or any final knowledge that you've gained

Tiffany: Just to keep going and listen to your intuition and your instincts, you know, because that's ultimately what led me here. And have a really good support system.

My staff and their support are all really wonderful. We have a really strong, wonderful team. And everybody, all of my support staff, they all either have a child with a disability or have some sort of connection to the disability community. And that's usually what makes the strongest support person and is why they're doing the job they're doing.

Basically I love everyone that works for me. We have a very strong family.